The true impact of value-based entrepreneurship feat. Carla Martinesi, founder of CHOMP

Carla Martinesi, founder of CHOMP, a food-saving app, shares her journey building a values-driven business

Dive into a fascinating conversation with Carla Martinesi, the innovative mind behind CHOMP, Hong Kong’s award-winning food-saving app. In this episode, we unravel the secrets behind CHOMP’s success and Carla’s journey from Switzerland to the forefront of the global fight against food waste. Discover how CHOMP has partnered with over 140 F&B establishments, saving thousands of kilograms of food from landfills. But this isn’t just about an app; it’s about values. Carla shares a profound insight into the core principles that guide her decisions as a leader, challenging the conventional narrative of profitability. Join us for an inspiring dialogue that goes beyond business, exploring the true impact of aligning values with entrepreneurship.

Time codes
01:10 – Introducing Carla, founder of CHOMP
02:15 – The story behind CHOMP
05:00 – The chicken and egg problem with CHOMP
07:20 – Finding mentors
10:19 – How did CHOMP take off
13:10 – Current statistics
13:40 – Scaling and Growing CHOMP
19:07 – Managing personal, sustainability vs customer needs
22:20 – Making decisions as a business owner
27:20 – Key takeaways

Featured voices

• Chris Edwards, founder of Honeycombers and Launchpad, and host of the Good Business podcast
• Carla Martinesi, founder of CHOMP

  Good Business goes behind the scenes of the leaders of good businesses, who have people, planet and profit at the core of their mission. Follow the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

  Full Transcript

  Chris Edwards 0:02

  Welcome to Good business, our weekly podcast to help you create the business that is good for people planet and the profit line. Hi, I’m Chris Edwards, I’m a serial entrepreneur, you may know me from my first business, honey comas, which is a digital lifestyle guide, providing you with everything you need to know to enjoy your local city. We operate in Singapore, Hong Kong and Bali. And this year, we’re in our 15th year of operation. Or perhaps you know, me as the founder of Launchpad, a community movement designed to support entrepreneurs who aspire to create conscious companies. On this podcast, we’re going to explore the ups and downs of the entrepreneurial ride and understand how successful and clever innovators and business leaders bring people planet and profit together to build better businesses. So what does it take to create a Heartland business? Join me and together, we’re going to learn how to create a good business. Okay, so today on the show, we have Carla Martin, AZ, who is coming to us from Hong Kong. And she is the co founder of Trump, which is a Hong Kong based app that I think’s really such a clever idea. Because basically, the app helps food and beverage businesses reduce food waste, and there’s some fantastic stat. It’s not fantastic. Actually, it’s a terrifying stat about how much food waste there is in Hong Kong. I think it’s something like 40% of all waste is food waste. Is that right? Am I getting that right or? No?

  Carla Martinesi 1:40

  No, you’re right in the landfill? That’s exactly right. 40%

  Chris Edwards 1:43

  of all waste is food waste. Like that is crazy. Anyway, so I’m maybe I’ll just jump in and ask Allah to share with us about the app. And how does it work? Because it sounds like such an incredible idea and such a clever business. But yeah, Carla, welcome to the show. And tell us about chomp.

  Carla Martinesi 2:06

  No, thanks for having me. I’m super excited to be here. I’ve been falling for a while. But yeah, so chump is a really brief idea that came up like two years ago in 2021. But the way that it works is that we tried to build the business to be a win win win solution. So to help the FMB industry in Hong Kong during COVID, but also to help the general public who had, you know, cut wages, and they were going through a really hard time during COVID as well and also good for the planet. So that was our three pillars that we wanted to help. And we came up with child as a sort of solution for that. So the way that it works is, once you open the app, it works like any other food ordering app, you get options of different restaurants and all of our vendors, we work with about 140 different vendors, anything from bakeries to coffee shops, even to bars. And they list at the end of the day, or at the end of the lunch shift how much food they have leftover. So they might have like three salad boxes, they might have like 10 pastries, and instead of letting it go to waste, they’ll put it on the app and sell it always for a discount. So when you order you know that you’re doing a good deed, because you’re essentially saving this food from going to waste and being thrown away. But also you’re getting a really good price for it. Because it’s always going to be discounted,

  Chris Edwards 3:21

  and you don’t know what you’re gonna get. Is it always a mystery box? Or can you know, you’re gonna get?

  Carla Martinesi 3:26

  No, exactly it depends on the vendors themselves in Chinese culture, you kind of want to know what it is not a big fan of surprises. But some places just so happened that they don’t know what is going to be leftover. So they’ll create a mystery box. So you’ll see it on the app, they’ll say like an assortment of bread goodies, or you’ll see an assortment of pastries, or it might be like a salad box with six ingredients. And you won’t know what it is. So it’s a little specific, but kind of hinting at, you might not know what you’re getting. But that’s how you fight food waste, essentially.

  Chris Edwards 3:58

  I mean, it’s so clever. It’s brilliant, brilliant idea. So tell me what’s been the biggest challenge in your journey. So far with Trump,

  Carla Martinesi 4:05

  there’s been quite a few obviously, it’s a new concept, which obviously makes it really hard to sort of grow. I think the sustainability angle is quite difficult. In Hong Kong, it’s not a very looked at or made aware. Like there’s a huge food waste problem. There’s a huge plastic problem in Hong Kong and obviously in the world as well, but Hong Kong specifically. And it’s hard to educate and tell people like, oh, you know, like, it’s an important cause, like you’re doing a good deed. But that’s kind of why we put such a steep discount, it’s so that there is an incentive even if you don’t care about sustainability. So that’s been a huge challenge. That’s been since day one, and it’s continued on and I don’t think we’ll ever be able to overcome it just because it’s a mindset thing.

  Chris Edwards 4:48

  And you’ve also had from what I understand a classic, you know, chicken and egg problem, which is the challenge with any marketplace, right because you have to attract both the chicken and The egg and you know, it’s hard to attract, you know what comes first. But you had to attract what I mean by that is the f&b establishments as well as the customers at the same time. And it’s hard to it’s like actually building Launchpad our community, like you can’t sell a community without members in it first. So you actually have to have people, you know, come in and find your concept. So tell me, has that been a challenge for you?

  Carla Martinesi 5:27

  Yeah, I also, I think the other challenge was that I didn’t know what that meant when I first started. So I just went in going well, this is a brilliant idea. Like, why would no one buy it and, and then, in our first like, couple of weeks, since we launched, I realised, oh, God, like, actually wait a minute, we need, our vendors are missing users, we need more users. And so we need to try and find a way to get more users. But then when we focused on getting more users, we were like, Oh, God, we’re not focusing on sales, we need more restaurants. And this is an ongoing issue in the sense that like, we put out surveys, we talk to our vendors, and it’s always like, oh, we’d love more customers. But you know, if we focus on We’re a small team of three, so if our marketing efforts are focused on getting new users there, retracted from getting into sales, and like as much as we split the task, the timeline is always going to be different, right? Like, you could get something really cool could happen, we could be featured in the media, and then we get a spike in users. But then our vendors don’t read that type of media, so they wouldn’t know. And so we still need to go and like do door to door and still need to do outreach. And it won’t be the same timeline, we could get more users and then it will never be parallel. But at the same time, there are some benefits here. It gives us enough time to like be strategic and to figure out like which specific vendors to put all of our efforts into, as opposed to just doing random like outreach. So yeah, pros and cons. But yes, chicken and egg very much a big problem with no solution at all, I think.

  Chris Edwards 6:59

  And how have you learned how to run the business? Like have you got some mentors or advisers? Or? Yeah, I mean, it’s a pretty big job learning just how, you know run a business from zero start to all the sudden I’ve got customers and vendors and tech.

  Carla Martinesi 7:16

  Yeah. Oh, God. So my backgrounds originally in f&b, my bachelor was in hospitality. So Tech was not at all something that I had learned or was at all interested in. It just so happens that it is a solution to a problem that I’m familiar with. And when I was doing my bachelor, we obviously part of hospitality is like running a business. It’s like running a hotel. So you learn things like financial accounting, you learn like marketing, you learn legal, like you learn all these different aspects of a business just so when it comes down to you being a general manager, you wouldn’t be able to, you know, you wouldn’t be like lost in the dark, like, you would sort of understand a little bit of every problem. In my mind, I was thinking, well, I could probably start something because I have some idea of accounting, I have some idea of marketing, like, it wouldn’t be that hard. And I was quite naive and thinking that and when we launched, I realised, like six months, and after our soft launch, it took off, and we started getting featured and things and we started getting more customers. And then that’s when we were like, Oh, shit, actually, we need to start, you know, trying to put up procedures and processes and we need to clean up our tech and we need to clean up our data policy, like what is that we never learned that. And that’s when the panic kind of sit in. And we’re just like, Oh, God, like, I need to figure this out. And so I reached out to a couple of mentors. At the time, they were great. But as soon as the business started scaling, like they weren’t able to advise anymore. And I was conflicted and thinking, okay, am I am I allowed to go somewhere else? Like, can I ask for a different mentor? Or am I stuck with just one? Because I’ve committed and I feel like, like there wasn’t any exchange and like payment or anything, it was just I felt bad thinking that it kind of felt like a breakup, like it was just we had to go somewhere else. Anyway, I got approached by other mentors, I had like legal advisors who really, really helped, especially when it comes to like food and hygiene, safety, it’s really important that you’re protected and businesses protected and customers are protected. So that was a big aspect. So to this day, we have four advisors, and they all do totally different things like one is in scaling. One is in marketing. One is specifically just for users. And like how to bring in more users user acquisition, like customer service and all that. But that’s as much as you try to learn in school. It doesn’t cover every single thing. It just covers like the surface. Oh, by the way, you should have someone illegal by the way, you should have someone in finance.

  Chris Edwards 9:43

  Okay. It really is a lot, isn’t it? And I think the other thing I find is it’s constantly changing. You know, like I just Yeah, I feel like that’s one thing that I love about business, but it’s also one of the challenges. You think you’re on top of it, and then A really great new tech piece comes out or the laws change, or you know, like some other some other thing gets thrown at you. And yeah, it’s just a constant learning journey. So how did Trump take off? You know, like, and what’s the success? What’s attraction like today, I’m really interested, because when you spoke there, it was like it was going, and then it took off. So what made it change gears into a really, I suppose, a successful business,

  Carla Martinesi 10:29

  I guess there wasn’t one specific thing, it was definitely a multitude of things that sort of started picking up. And then it was kind of like a curve, as opposed to like one specific thing that just shot up. So when we first launched, our idea was to do a lot of pre marketing. Now, that was something that we learned at school that it was very successful. And it was, it was a no brainer, like, if you’re going to launch a business, you want to make a lot of noise to pre marketing. And that kind of helped our chicken and egg problem, because it set us up for a waiting list. And it set us up for vendors that were already going to be on the app once at launch. But that’s a temporary solution, because you have to maintain it. So that helped a lot. Like we build a waiting list of 200 people once the app launched, which helped garner some attention, like some attention. And then the next thing that happened was we started getting featured in different media’s like sassy things like live and all these different things. And that garnered more attention, honey goers and big fans. And that garnered loads of retention. But the thing that really, like changed, and what changed our strategy as well was we signed Lavon bakery, which is a independently run bakery, they’ve got four locations, but they’ve got a huge, huge loyal customer fan base. And we didn’t know this at the time, but we put in like these in store marketing, like stickers and flyers and coupons for them. So if you are a regular customer, you could use a coupon and download the app and get the first box for free things like that. And when we did a survey, we like 90% of the people who answered the survey said they saw us through in store marketing. And we’re like, Okay, wow, like because there was so at some point, like we onboard them onto the app, and then it shut up. And they got really popular really fast. We were wondering what happened. There wasn’t any answer until the survey, then we joined incubators. So like we were under new world development. So that garnered attention. And it gave us a little bit of credibility as well. And then we were proud of Cyberport. But then I think the other thing that happened this year was being featured in even more media, which we didn’t even expect at all. It was things like Tatler, things like a cmp, and even local media like and that helped a lot boost, and then we signed flash coffee, then we signed to my themes, and then it became a lot more traction. So that really helped. And then we started going to like events. And they’re like, Oh, we know Chomp, oh, I have the app like and they were showing us our phones. And it was a very like, full circle moment. type thing. Yeah. So I wouldn’t say one moment, it was very much like different moments that helped push the needle.

  Chris Edwards 13:01

  And yeah, and how many users do you have today?

  Carla Martinesi 13:05

  So we have 9000 users, I’m hoping by the end of the year, it’ll be a good 10,000 And plus, and we have 140 vendors. So far, we’ve rescued just over 4000 boxes of food from going to waste I’m estimating it’s about a kilo for each order. So it would be an average of about 1000 kilos of co2 that saved from emitting into our atmosphere. So yeah, so that’s about that’s less than two years. So we’re hoping it’ll escalate a little bit more next year. Wow.

  Chris Edwards 13:33

  That’s really cool. So what is next? Like, have you got international markets on the agenda,

  Carla Martinesi 13:41

  we’ve been approached by a few different investors to see if we can go to Singapore would be the closest market to Hong Kong, and then Australia would be the next one. But the problem is, I’ve never been to Australia, so I wouldn’t know anything about it. But I’ve been told that there’s a huge sustainability culture that they’re very into. They’re they’re big foodies, so it would work well. But I don’t know the market well enough, and it’s a little scary. So that would be next, probably, maybe not in the near future. But in the future for sure. The goal of chomp is to expand into a solution that’s sort of like the 360s. So if you were in school, you would have a solution. Like maybe it works in your canteens. If you’re in universities, if you’re working in a corporate office, and you had a pantry or canteen there, it would work there. Airlines as well like things, an area that has food, maybe not necessarily like an f&b industry in there exactly. But to make Ciampa solution that would work anywhere that has food would be the goal. So hopefully next year,

  Chris Edwards 14:38

  it’s a massive application. Isn’t that a massive opportunity for you? So have you taken investment. So

  Carla Martinesi 14:45

  we took a little bit at the beginning to launch our MVP. So the first version of our app, we took about 500k And that was from friends and family. And then the rest has been things like accelerators, grants and government ants have helped a lot. So Hong Kong has a big $6 billion budget that’s given to startups. And you have to do loads of loads of hours of applications for it. But it’s grants for marketing and grants for technol. Technology. And so yeah, so we’ve been floating by with that.

  Chris Edwards 15:16

  Yeah. And so is fundraising on the cards for you? Is that something that you’re looking at? Yeah,

  Carla Martinesi 15:22

  definitely. I think we’re at a point where we can I think at the beginning, we were way too green way too young. But even I was thinking that I was way too naive. And I still didn’t know a lot of things. And we had just launched our MVP. And I was thinking like, you know, we need to show that there’s people who like, like using the app and vendors that actually like we need some data to show. And I think just as we launched, it was too early. I think now we’re at a point where we can, so I started pitching a little bit last month, and it’s going to take a while. So I’ve been told to actually get the ball rolling. So I’m crossing my fingers that it’ll be beginning of next year, hopefully, yeah,

  Chris Edwards 16:00

  cool. It’s kind of journey. Isn’t that? One thing I wanted to touch on? Is you decided not to offer delivery services in an attempt to maintain your sustainability principles? I find that really interesting. So how do you balance the need for convenience with you know, I suppose it’s like, the the customer needs verse, your, I suppose sustainability goal needs, like, how do you balance that? Yeah,

  Carla Martinesi 16:28

  this has been a huge, like internal debate, or externos. While I guess, amongst friends, amongst stakeholders about whether or not this is a good idea, I’m super open to change it if we manage to find a way to make sustainable delivery, or because Hong Kong doesn’t have that many delivery options that are sustainable, like they’ll, I mean, Uber Eats pulled out, but a lot of them are on scooters or motorbikes. So it’s not that eco friendly. So because the carbon emissions that you offset by ordering on shop is small, you would basically counter it with by getting it delivered, which a lot of people don’t know about, but it’s more of a question of like, do we advertise that? Do we draw attention to it? Or do we say it’s pick up only and leave it at that? There are many benefits, like the majority of our vendors, I should say, prefer pickup because it means that the customer comes to the store, they get to interact with the staff, chances are they’re probably order something else because they’re there, or they’ll see their favourite item, but it’s not in the order. So they prefer it that way. But obviously, you’re right, like customers want convenience, especially in a city like Hong Kong. And that’s convenience is everything. So it’s been a big debate, and I’m still on the fence about whether or not this was the right decision. Or if we should switch to a sustainable delivery model. Like maybe it’s just Walkers and the radius is much smaller. But then again, it would require a lot of investment, it would change the app itself. It might even include a third version of the app where you would have just for delivery mode, like for delivery drivers or delivery riders are delivery walkers. So yeah, so it definitely has, I wouldn’t say impacted. But I definitely will say that it’s it’s a question that we get a lot because there are some people who want to order from Kowloon side, and they want to order something in central but it’s even on competitors like or other apps like food, Panda and delivery. Like you wouldn’t even be able to deliver that far anyway. But yeah, so it’s been a bit of a debate. We do have some vendors on the app who do offer delivery, but it’s charged on surplus, like not surplus, it’s surcharge there. Yeah, in addition, so you’d have to basically make another payment offline to that vendor, just so that they can organise the delivery for you. So I don’t know.

  Chris Edwards 18:45

  It’s a really big challenge is not this is like a question of sustainability ethics and what you’re trying to achieve this what the customer wants, and I can I can see that you’ve, you know, you’re still working through it. What advice do you have for people that are looking at these kind of challenges in their business, like what’s helped you?

  Carla Martinesi 19:08

  I think, also your own personal values are quite important here. I think it’s quite easy for you to get lost in numbers and get lost in, especially when you’re dealing with so many customers and they all have their own opinion. It’s quite easy to get swayed into, like, yes, 100% listen to a customer and try to figure out how to solve that problem. But if all of them are giving, let’s say like life advice to you, let’s say every person you ever knew is giving you life advice at some point, they’re all going to be different advices and you can’t take them all there, you’ve only got the one life and it would be impossible to take like 100 Different advices on how to live your life. So we try to accommodate as many times as possible, but there’s definitely things like delivery is really hard to to figure out and some people like it and some people don’t like it and we did a survey for about 300 people bar like our most frequent users, and all of them, like 100%, said they didn’t want delivery. And it was because I didn’t think of this. But it was because the price of the boxes can be so low, that if you had delivery, it would be almost double. So, for example, a minimum charge would be $20, for delivery, some of the boxes you can find on the app or $20, you would be basically paying two boxes for having it delivered. So it’s a bit conflicting. So I think my advice would be, yes, take advice from others. And obviously, we have mentors, we have people like customers who we think about and we listened to, but at some point, end of the day, it will be a decision that you make and that you have to live with. And it needs to be something that you’re okay with. And if not you’re very proud of and you can stick by it for a long period of time, like, mentors come and go. Customers can move away, they could change they could, whatever, and you would have to have made a decision that you like, and you’re able to stick by. So I think when it comes down to it, Be okay with what you’ve decided and sick. Like, I

  Chris Edwards 21:06

  love that how I and I think it’s interesting, as an entrepreneur, particularly as a young entrepreneur, you do seek out so much advice, because I think you often think people would know better than me, people have done this before people have grown big businesses. But at the end of the day, you’re absolutely right, in that you have to live with your decisions, you have to be proud of what you’ve created and what you’ve done. And only you know, your true values, and only you will know if it’s right or wrong. Yeah,

  Carla Martinesi 21:41

  exactly. Right. I think like at the end of the day, you have to go to bed, knowing that that’s your life, right? And you need to be okay with it. And if you go to bed thinking you’ve made a mistake, like all the time, it’s no way to live. Yeah.

  Chris Edwards 21:54

  It’s so interesting. And it’s such an important conversation. Because, you know, I suppose that’s kind of what this podcast is all about. It’s like, you can have a business, but why choose to just have a business, when you can actually have a business that does more than make money, it can actually, you know, drive change, or educate or reduce waste. But you know, like, I just think people don’t think big enough sometimes on what they can do with their lives and what they can do with their business. And, yeah, you know, you only get one shot, you only get one life, right, you gotta kind of make the most of it and go to bed feeling really happy with your choices. I think that’s a really, it’s a very important piece that we don’t really talk about that much, really, I don’t

  Carla Martinesi 22:42

  know about you, but a lot of people I’ve met in Hong Kong have had multiple startup businesses, like it may not be their first venture, it might be their second or third, or they might have worked at a startup and then started their own. So they already are in the groove of things. And they know, maybe they already know like, where they want, they want to go and like how to run the business already. But for people like me who’ve never done it before, and are struggling with being conflicted with so many different opinions and decisions. And you do end up with like decision fatigue, and you do end up with like, being really tired of listening to so many people and going, Okay, well, I’m a little bit stuck, too, because they’re all people I value. And they all people that I really care for. And my entire business depends on this. I’m not sure like, does it or does it not? Yeah, it’s something that comes up a lot. And it’s it’s tough, but I don’t think it’s impossible. Like,

  Chris Edwards 23:34

  yeah, I think it is really tough. And I do think decision fatigue is a real thing. Like when you’re constantly the decision maker, everyone looks to you all. So what are we going to do? I’m always like, Well, why would it? Why would you think we should fight you right? At the end of the day, the back kind of stops with you as the business owner. And you do need to feel good about the decisions you make? Yeah. Also on

  Carla Martinesi 23:59

  that note is, like you said, everyone’s looking at you. But it’s also people who maybe are not linked to you in any way. Like maybe, for example, I’ve been following your emails for a long time. But we have never met. So I already had an impression of like your business and who you were, because I had been following, but you probably had no idea who I was because I was just another subscriber. But the way that you write and the way that you use your language, and the way that you act is has made an impression on me. But even though it’s like so second degree, the things that you decide to do, like make an impact on everyone else, and how they view like maybe it’s you and your business and that decides whether or not like I join a join Launchpad or like I read honey, coerce, and it’s even like our small business, if I do something and like let’s say I make a video and I post on social media, like it will be a judgement from our followers on like what kind of person I am or, and that also has a huge impact, but you don’t see this because you’re totally on one side. And it’s the A little terrifying, but also it shows like it speaks volumes that like, even if you make a decision, like so many people are watching. It’s a little scary, but at the same time, it helps knowing that it needs to be an important decision. Or you need to make an important decision because all these people rely on you, whether it’s your staff or your customers or your followers, things like that. That’s what I’ve seen.

  Chris Edwards 25:21

  That’s quite terrifying.

  Carla Martinesi 25:24

  not intentional.

  Chris Edwards 25:27

  Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I find really interesting is, even with this podcast, I produce it and put it out there. And I look at the numbers as to how many people listening, but it really strikes be very deeply when I meet a stranger, and they kind of like, Yeah, I know you I listened to your podcast, because I’m like, no, like, these chats are so intimate. And I think that’s one of the reasons I love podcasting. Because it is the conversation that we’re sharing with people, but you do show so much about yourself. And it is a very, it’s an intimate conversation about your business, or your numbers and what keeps you up at night, and how you know, how you problem solve, like, it’s all, it’s fundamental how you build a brand as well, you know, like, I believe good brands are based on people that are honest and vulnerable and care and will let people into their world to see it, warts and all. So I appreciate you. coming on today and sharing colour, it’s really great problem that you have, and I think you’re doing I think you’ve made all the right decisions. So far, I look forward to helping you on your journey with Singapore and Australia, because that’s the neck of the woods. I know really well. So I’m in your corner, and very happy to have you as a new member to Launchpad. And I think you’ll find that community will be fantastic for your business. Because you’re right in that sustainability is not really, I suppose a big movement in Hong Kong yet. It’s been in Singapore, and it’s a much, much bigger in Australia. So I think the opportunity if you can do Hong Kong, which you have, like the opportunity for Trump’s enormous elsewhere, so I’m really excited to see.

  Carla Martinesi 27:18

  Oh, thank you. Hope so crossing fingers crossed

  Chris Edwards 27:20

  fingers. I know. I know. Thanks so much, Carla, for joining us today. That was awesome.

  Carla Martinesi 27:28

  Thanks for having me. That was super fun.

  Chris Edwards 27:33

  Thanks so much for listening. What a delightful interview that was with Carla, I have one big takeaway. And I hope you guys are going to take this away too. At the end of the day, as the decision maker and the leader of your company or business, you have so many people giving you advice. But at the end of the day, the decision has to come back to your values and your principles, and you have to be able to sleep at night. And when you have a business, it really is your opportunity to not just create a company that makes money, but a company that you’re so fundamentally proud of because of your values and your ethical standards and your principles. So I hope you love that episode, please let me know drop me an email at Chris at the launchpad dot group. If you have any feedback, I absolutely love hearing from our listeners. And if you found this episode helpful, please be sure to leave a review or give us a rating. Finally, if you’re interested to join our community of conscious entrepreneurs that are purpose led and supportive, please come and check us out at www dot the launchpad dot group. And finally I just wanted to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which I’m recording this podcast, which is the Iraq War people of the Bundjalung nation. It’s been a really heavy, sad time in Australia over the recent weeks and my heart really does go out to all First Nations people and I deeply respect the elders of their community, past, present and future and I extend my respects to all traditional cultures. Thanks again for tuning in to good business. My name is Chris Edwards. And that’s all for today.